Confessions of a RIFB Girl of 20-something {my thoughts on homosexuality.}

I’m placing my bet now (oops, just kidding… Baptist’s don’t bet) that this topic will bring about quite a bit of comment action. But, please, before you freak out on me, read the entire post… then  leave whatever comments you may have on the matter. I suspect I’ll probably lose a couple followers because of this post, too… who knows, maybe the unthinkable will happen and I’ll gain a couple followers!

The word “abomination” is mentioned 168 times in the King James Bible. Here are a few examples:

  • Certain foods were an abomination (Lev. 7, 11)
  • Homosexuality is an abomination (Lev. 18, 20)
  • Graven images are an abomination (Deut. 7)
  • Religious rituals to false gods (ie. Offering children as burn sacrifices) is an abomination (Deut. 12)
  • Serving other gods is an abomination (Deut. 13)
  • Offering blemished animals as sacrifices was an abomination (Deut. 17)
  • Women who wear men’s clothing are an abomination (Deut. 22)
  • Re-marrying your ex-wife is an abomination (Deut. 24)
  • Those of a forward heart are an abomination (Prov. 3, 11)
  • A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked imaginations, feet that are swift to run to mischief, a false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among brethren (Prov. 6)
  • Wickedness is an abomination (Prov. 8 )
  • A false balance (Prov. 11)
  • The sacrifice, the way, and the thoughts of the wicked are an abomination (Prov. 15)
  • Everyone that is proud in heart is an abomination (Prov. 16)
  • He that justifies the wicked and he that condemns the just are both an abomination (Prov. 17)

…and we’ve just begun to scratch the surface.

What’s my point in all of this? I’m glad you asked.

The big deal Christians have against “homosexuality” is that the Bible calls it an abomination – and rightly so. Therefore we condemn them, avoid them, and excommunicate them from our churches if they refuse to renounce and forsake their wicked abominations.

Well, allow me to help you be consistent in your choices. While you’re kicking out the homosexuals, you should probably also get rid of your pastor’s gossiping wife, all the choir members with proud egos that barely fit through the church’s front doors, the underprivileged little girls who are currently wearing their brother’s hand-me-downs, and all the teens in the youth group who are pathological liars.

What’s that you say? — Oh, the homosexuals know what they’re doing is wrong, yet continue doing it anyways? You raise a good point.

I’m pretty sure one of the most popular Sunday school lessons taught in churches today is Moses and the Ten Commandments. As a memory-refresher, let me share a couple with you:
– Don’t take God’s name in vain.
– Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
– Don’t kill.
– Don’t steal.
– Don’t bear false witness.
– Don’t covet.

Measure yourself against that list. Have you broken any? — Yeah, me too. In fact, I’ve broken them all. The Bible says if you’ve broken one law, you’ve broken them all (James 2:10). Did you know if you hate someone, that’s equal to murder? Did you know if you lust after someone, that’s equal to adultery?

So back to your original question: “What’s the point I’m trying to make?”
I don’t think homosexuality is any worse than any other sin. There… I said it. Am I in any way condoning homosexuality? Absolutely not! Homosexuality is wicked; it’s wrong; it’s sinful –– just like pride, gossip, lying, and stealing is wicked, wrong, and sinful.

I’m no more good and blameless than the murderer sitting in prison. The homosexual is no more wicked and vile than I am. God views us all as guilty; He has no more respect for one than the other (Rom. 2:11). Of course, there is that thing called grace; there’s mercy and forgiveness; there’s a place called Calvary – it’s a place of hope; a place of freedom; a place of life everlasting.

Sin needs to be dealt with – but we should not ostracize the sinner for the “crimes” he has committed. We should make aware, encourage, train, love, and help them. And by “help them” I don’t mean turn a blind eye, give up trying after awhile, accept as normal, and tolerate it in the future. I mean “help them” – point them in the right direction… point them to the cross where Jesus became sin for them so they wouldn’t have to continue living under the bondage of sin (II Cor. 5:21).

Put your pointer finger away, hater;
get the wooden log out of your own eye;
and go help someone who needs you.
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Posted on January 20, 2011, in Confessions of a Rebellious Independent Fundamental Baptist Girl of 20-something {Series}, Homosexuality and tagged , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 48 Comments.

  1. I thoroughly agree, 100%. Most of the time, we try to justify our sins by pointing at “worse” sins in someone else. “I don’t struggle with this one, so I’m ok.” Not from where God’s sitting…

    • Absolutely. God is not a respector of persons.
      Sin is sin. Therefore, we are all equal in the eyes of God… unless we are covered by the precious blood of Christ.
      Thank you for stopping by, Andrew. Blessings.

  2. I really appreciate your post. It is something many people don’t want to take a good hard look at in Scripture. You bring up a topic that is running rampant in many Christian circles …not just Baptist. Thanks for sharing.

    • “You bring up a topic that is running rampant in many Christian circles …not just Baptist.”
      I agree. This is a topic most groups who don’t whole-heartedly embrace it, try to avoid completely.

  3. Well, here is your first comment. Yesterday, I was thinking on something such as this. The issue I was thinking on was within a family and how when there is a division in the family, many times it parallels what we are told by God how to deal with a sin issue within the church.
    When a child has gone against their fathers word and offend their father, it should cause a division with this child’s relationship and their mother also. If it continues and they don’t get things right, it can then also cause a division with their siblings also. This is the normal turn of events within a family. Eventually if the child refuses to get things right, this one will be sent away, depending on their age, either to their room after corporal punishment, or from their home if they are of age.
    This is the same within the church, the offending person sin should be addressed, if they do not get things right, they are to be taken before the church and then if they still do not get things right they are to be sent from the congregation.
    Now, with the gossiping church lady, after one offense, aren’t you aware enough to avoid this person, your fellowship is broken with her. Same thing with the rebellious teen, you should know enough to stay clear. Same thing with this one that is going against nature, with homosexuality. When it comes down to it, it is not because they prefer to snuggle in front of the tv with the same sex.
    Just some thoughts

    • Yvonne –
      I agree that church discipline has it’s time and place – BUT it should not be the first thing we as Christians resort too. It’s like the default railing we clutch whenever we panic and are afraid of falling into compromise.
      We (the church) need to take time to be Jesus to the world. We will never win sinners to Him if all we do is condemn them when they stand in our presence.
      It’s been said over and over again by countless people aross countless ages:
      “Hate the sin; love the sinner.” <– that's what will get the job done.
      It worked for Jesus anyway…

      Thank you for the comment.

  4. I think the reason it is such a big issue, is that homosexuality is becoming legally recognized and openly accepted in some church congregations. I don’t think people are “ranking” sin, or overreacting. It would be outrageous if active (unrepentant) murderers were appointed as overseers… Murder is still illegal, but under the same compromises (abortion) as marriage (via homosexual marriage) …

    I think your post is dealing with the spirit in which some churches are handling this issue, and I do think there is merit to that. Sin is sin, and needs to be dealt with.

    God bless, Richie
    http://rcsthe.blogspot.com

    • It doesn’t matter if sin is “recognized” as legal or not. The issue is that is still a sin – it will never be so-called “legal” in God’s eyes.
      The point I’m trying to make is that sin is sin is sin is sin is sin. There is no scale or degree on which we can “label” sin as being better or worse than something else in the pot. It’s all sin. All sin leads to the same end – eternity in Hell. All sin must be paid for the same way – through the precious Blood of Jesus Christ.
      The church needs to realize that they are not the final judge of people. We are on this earth to help point people to Jesus Christ. Notice, I didn’t say that we are here to condone or “legalize” anything. We are to have the spirit of Christ and point them to the cross where they, too, can find forgiveness and healing from their sins.
      Thank you for visiting, Richie. Blessings to you and yours!

      • I should have made myself more clear. I meant the reason homosexuality is in the spotlight among churches, is that it is the one being pressed in as a societal norm and society is attempting to legalize it. This is the American culture embracing sin and shouting “WE ACCEPT THIS!”

        This is a far cry from what we see among the other sins, such as lying under oath, stealing, or even adultery. All of these things are illegal, and nobody is trying to make those things legal. But homosexuality is a sin that society is pushing for to be legally acceptable.

        Don’t misunderstand, I’m not basing our legal system as a moral system by any means. What I am trying to say however, is that when we’re taking something that is sinful and injecting it into the legal system and receive full societal backing and approval … is a very formal way of rejecting God’s ways.

        That is why homosexuality and abortion get so much attention (and rightly so) from the church.

        Of course, if people had regenerate hearts, they wouldn’t be doing those things. But that is beyond the scope of this comment. Thanks for sharing 🙂

        God bless, Richie
        http://rcsthe.blogspot.com

  5. Excellent points with good Scripture to back them up! I especially like your last paragraph about helping them. Just because a homosexual gets saved doesn’t mean he’s going to gain the victory over that sin instantaneously. On the other hand many “Christians” are now saying loving a homosexual means we must accept their lifestyle as being okay. This is so blatantly against the Bible it’s nauseating (Rom. 1, Lev 18). Yes we MUST love the sinner, but we CANNOT ever love their sin, whether it’s homosexuality, lying, gossip, or pride. We cannot ever “accept” it as being okay. If we start accepting things the Bible says are wrong then what was the point of Jesus coming to die? What’s the point of being forgiven? I personally know several homosexuals. I love and accept them as people whom Jesus died for, just like I would with any other lost person. I am friends with them. I work with them. On occasion I even socialize with them. I do not condone their lifestyle. They need Christ too, and I may be the only witness they ever see. If I ostracize them what is that showing them about the God I serve?

    • “On the other hand many “Christians” are now saying loving a homosexual means we must accept their lifestyle as being okay. This is so blatantly against the Bible it’s nauseating.”
      True. Just because we love the sinner does not mean in any way shape or form that we are excusing their sin and accepting it as the norm. Because we are not.

      “If we start accepting things the Bible says are wrong then what was the point of Jesus coming to die?”
      Absolutely. right on, JessB.

      I love your last statement. We cannot show forth the love of Christ to sinner by shunning them from our presence. How can they see and understand what they are not exposed to? We as Christians need to be the Christ-like examples we are called to be.

      Thank you for the comment, JessB. Blessings.

  6. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.”

    Psalms Chapter 109 Verse 7

  7. When will Christians understand that if we live like we are meant too our churches will be filled with people ‘getting it wrong’. Christianity is a faith for the sick not the well. We may try and make it look pious but that is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. Maybe before we start pointing the finger at others we should repent ourselves.

    Well said Heather!

    • “Christianity is a faith for the sick not the well.” – LOVE THIS.
      You’re absolutely right, Nick.
      I have a book awaiting me on my bookshelf called “When Christians Get It Wrong” — I’m lookign forward to reading it. I’m hoping it will address a few of these “controversial” issues we as Christians tend to shun instead of deal with.

  8. You’re right Heather Joy. Homosexuality is wrong but no more wrong than other sins. Love and grace goes such a long way in healing as does prayer. Preaching at someone pushes them away and that’s not Jesus’ desire for His loved ones. I feel so strongly about this I’m so glad you brought it up.

    • It takes us right back to the moat and the beam.
      We all have our own issues that we should be concentrating on.
      Let God be God, and every man a liar. He knows the thoughts and intent of every heart – and only He knows what’s truly going on inside everyone.
      He is their Creator after all.
      Blessings.

  9. Okay, been thinking over your post… here’s what I walk away with. Homosexuality makes God sick! Lying makes God sick! being disobedient to parents makes God sick! All sin makes God sick! So 1: we (the church) don’t take sin seriously for if we did, we would express the same disdain for covetousness as we do homosexuality. 2. most of the American church’s disdain for homosexuality isn’t righteous in that it has God’s holiness first,for we pass over more personally acceptable abominations with not even a tear. 3. we should strive to love people and help them be free from their abominable chains whether lying or homosexuality. If we treated the man who over ate like many do the homosexual then most Baptist churches would be closed for lack of attendance.
    Homosexuals are men/women who were created to be God’s image bearers and they are not. They were made to praise God, and they’re not. They don’t know true happiness.
    As for church discipline, that is a deep topic, and one that isn’t as simple as “I told ’em to stop and they didn’t, KICK ‘EM OUT!!” One of the missions of the church is restoration, but most find it easier to sever off their own limb that try to nurse it back to health. unrepentant sin, sure, that should be “excommunicated”. But NEVER NEVER forsaken!!! Be lovingly relentless to them… just as Jesus was to you! There’s so much more I could say.
    I appreciate your heart in this, Heather. At first glance it may seem that you are lowering the seriousness of the sin of homosexuality, but you’re not. You’re raising the other sins we sweep under the rug and tolerate and you’re calling the church to love. There are certain denominational movements that pride themselves on how they cut themselves off from everyone they don’t agree with. In my opinion, this is probably the best thing for the church for their attitude is the cancer! If only we could get physical cancer to cut itself out of a properly functioning body as they do millions of people would be healed!! =)
    i’ve included a link where I sort’a addressed the issue of dealing with sin in the church if one wishes to see how I try to explain it further.
    http://reflectionsandmeditations.com/2010/11/10/the-great-divorce/
    God bless.

    • Daniel, that was EXACTLY what I was trying to convey in this post. You got it!
      Thank you for clarifying and expanding on my thoughts. I think you did a better job explaining it in your comment than I did in my mile-long post! ;P
      Thank you for the link – I’m heading over there right now to read it.
      Blessings.

  10. Throughout the Bible, homosexuality is always spoken of as wrong. Yet, as you say, Eden, other sins are spoken of as equally wrong – in fact, in some cases, as worse.

    Examples? I’ve often heard homosexuality caused Sodom’s destruction. And Sodom had lots of it going on. If I was trying to avoid God’s judgment, I don’t think I’d take part in trying to gang-rape two angels! But which sins does the Bible say actually caused God to destroy Sodom? “Sodom’s sins were pride, laziness, and too much food, while the poor and needy suffered outside her door.” (Ezekiel 16:48-50).

    And Amos said Jerusalem and Samaria would be destroyed too – not for homosexualilty, but for “caring nothing at all that your brothers need your help.” (Amos 6:1-7, Living Bible).

    So in BOTH those passages God says that the worst sin – if you want to rank them that way — the one that would bring God’s judgment – wasn’t homosexuality, as much as the Bible says he does hate that. It was failing to take care of the poor and needy.

    How much attention do we pay to that?

    • Of course we know that God doesn’t “rank” our sin – it’s all equal in His eyes. Sin is sin is sin is sin. And it all must be paid for the same way – through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
      Thank you for the comment, Pete!
      Blessings to you and your family.

  11. What do you do when both same sex together want to join fellowship. Isn’t the Church a place for sinners? Homosexuals believe that God accepted their relationship, because you have so called pastors that are in sheeps clothing and have lied to them by saying that God accepts them for the way they are! I BELIEVE THAT MANY HOMOSEXUALS KNOWS THAT IT IS SIN. BUT THEY CAN’T CHANGE ON THEIR OWN. ONLY GOD HAS THE POWER TO CHANGE AND TRANSFORM LIVES!
    Many Christians are very uncomfortable being around a struggling homosexual and so the body of Christ have become homophobic. I work in a high school where the majority are LGBT and I have pleaded with God to help me to understand why I He put me to work there, ( I am a counselor) because I myself was very uncomfortable being around them myself. I didn’t want any identification with them. I transferred how I was treated to them because I was treated that way by Christians. But that is how Christians dealt with me! For many years, I have despised that I came from that lifestyle.
    The Holy Spirit had to change my way of thinking and changed how I perceived even as a christian. We do have to admit that we have a distorted belief system His Ways and Thoughts are not like ours. Please understand, I do not endorse their same sex sin, but because the Holy Spirit had to show me how judgemental I was toward them that God started to melt that away and pour out His Love, Mercy, and Compassion into my heart.
    The problem I have with what is often called ‘church discipline’ is that it usually only applies to sexual sins, when Paul’s list included far more: “You must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler.” Sometimes the very people implementing such discipline are those who live greedy or gossiping lives. If we’re going to take this seriously, let’s do it for all in this list and not just for sexual sins. But notice what Paul is really driving at here. It’s not the sin that causes the problem, but their attempts to pass themselves off as a brother or sister in that sin. He tells us not to avoid them in the world or treat them with contempt but to avoid the appearance that people are on the journey when they are not allowing Jesus to transform them into his image. The real dilemma is how do we love them without endorsing their point of view, which Jesus had no problem doing and when we learn to walk in compassion and truth we will find that freedom as well.

    So, I hope those thoughts are helpful.

    Blessings,

    • There are a couple things you said that I especially liked:
      1. “I believe that many homosexuals know that it is sin, but they can’t change on their own. Only God has the power to change and transform lives!”
      Amen to that! – especially the last sentence.

      2. “Many Christians are very uncomfortable being around a struggling homosexual and so the body of Christ have become homophobic.”
      I’m not sure why, but that made me laugh. However, I agree with you 100% on this one as well.

      3. “For many years I have despised that I came from that lifestyle.”
      I’m a little confused on this one. You despise that you came from the “homosexual” lifestyle, or from a “Christian” lifestyle?

      4. “The real dilemma is how do we love them without endorsing their point of view – which Jesus had no problem doing; and when we learn to walk in compassion and truth we will find that freedom as well.”
      AMEN. and Amen.

      Thank you for your comment, Chris! Blessings to you and yours.

      • Thank you very much for taking this time to respond to my comment.
        I would clarify what I meant when I quoted, “For many years I have despised that I came from that lifestyle.”
        Yes, I have been rescued from the sin of homosexuality and for many years I have despised my past as a homosexual! I believe I went through a season that caused me to despised everything that it stood for. It was a very long season!
        It was the work of God’s grace in my life.
        Holy Spirit have helped me moment by moment through the process to change my way of thinking, change my behavior, and my beliefs system to see things through God’s perspective. Letting have full throne of my heart!
        The blood of Jesus have cleansed me of ALL my sins and only God has the Power to transform lives such as someone like myself that was in total bondage.
        He has transformed my life and have set me free to love and worship Him!
        I am now walking in His freedom, with a new identity, and a daily transformed life.
        God is AMAZING! Just to think that I have fellowship and friendship with God the Creator of the heavens, the earths, and of me! And that He also dwells within my me as His temple!

        God richly bless you and yours,
        ~Chris

        • I’m glad to have read your testimony, Chris.
          It’s all the Lord’s doing, as you said. No one can take the credit but He.
          I praise the Lord with you for the work He’s done in your life.
          Blessings, my friend.

      • Oh, how do we love them without endorsing their point of view? Like I said, for a long season I shun away from homosexuals.
        Now because God has done such a work of grace and mercy. I find myself loving them and showing compassion to them. They are sinners lost in their sin…just like I was!
        I work with in a high school where the population of students are LGBTQ. Through them, that is when God grab a hold of my heart and started to showed me how He wants to reach them with the Good News.
        I don’t preach to them, I don’t beat them with scriptures, ect.
        Holy Spirit simply help me to love them! I have to be a torch of God’s love and mercy. I was lost myself!Jesus found me and have chosen me to serve Him!
        I would never understand why He chosen me.
        One of the reason that many christians have a hard time ministering to the homosexuals is because they want to see fast change result and they interfere with the Holy Spirit’s work in their lives.
        That is the work of Holy Spirit alone to transform the life of a believers, NOT OURS! They are not the Holy Spirit and so they do nothing but damage the process with those who are struggling.

        God is Love and as His children they will know that we belong to Him by our love!

        Blessings,
        ~Chris

  12. Heather,

    As a former Baptist deacon and elder and one who has struggled with unwanted same-sex attraction (homosexuality) and lived to tell about it . . .even in the Baptist church, I agree with you. What we need to be doing as Christans is sharing the truth, but doing it with compassion. I’ve learned that many Christians, when they are educated on this issue, are relieved to know that they do not bear the responsibility of judging and condemning men and women who consider themselves gay. We are not released from our call to love others as Christ loves us.

    I did bear the weight of knowing people considered me an abomination. I forgive them for that and I work now to help them understand so others will not bear that weight and so that the church can truly minister with truth.

    God Bless,

    Thom — thomhunter.com

    • God bless you, Thom, as you seek to share His love and grace with others.

      I’m glad it’s not my job to judge and condemn people – that’s the Lord’s job. My job is to take time to care for them and help where I can. I’m to strive to be Christ-like in my actions, and show forth the love of Jesus to them.

      Blessings.

  13. Great post Heather! I had a good friend my first semester of college (a Christian univ) who had once been a lesbian. From talking to her it seemed as though she felt more guilt over her sin because, in her eyes, she had committed an abomination, not just your garden variety sin. When Christians use the word, they need to make it clear, as you said, that homosexuality isn’t the only abomination. If we don’t, we may be saddling those who are trying to repent with extra guilt and slowing (or halting) the healing process . Blessings,

    Eden

    • It’s certainly not easy to quit an “addiction” – which is what the homosexual lifestyle basically is.
      I have friends who are involved in this, and it’s heartbreaking to watch – especially when you know they KNOW the truth and are choosing this anyways.
      Thank you for your comment, Eden. :]
      {Btw, I love your new additional blog.}

  14. Wow. I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m a new follower and your blog is awesome! Can’t wait to read more!!!! God Bless!

  15. Catholics see things a little differently, and I will point it out what we believe.

    Just with your first few examples:

    You said “•Certain foods were an abomination (Lev. 7, 11)
    •Homosexuality is an abomination (Lev. 18, 20)
    •Graven images are an abomination (Deut. 7)
    •Religious rituals to false gods (ie. Offering children as burn sacrifices) is an abomination (Deut. 12)”

    It’s not the food that’s the abomination, for all God’s creation is good, right? But God said that the Jews shouldn’t eat certain things. The key difference here is the eating of the forbidden food is the abomination. Same thing with the others. Graven images are not an abomination. Actively worshipping graven images is, as what the Jews were doing when Moses came down from Mt. Sinai. My point is that it is the doing that is the abomination, it is the doing that is wrong. Same with homosexuality. Is it wrong to be attracted to someone of the same sex? Frankly, I think Rafael Nadal is attractive. Am I wrong to think so? No. But if I have a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex, that is the wrong.

    Next, we have to deal with our reaction to someone who is obviously living in sin…Jesus told the Pharisees “Let you who is without sin cast the first stone…” and the Pharisees drifted away as Jesus spelled out their sins with his finger in the sand…In a Catholic Church, you never know who you will sit next to. Could be a drug addict, could be a prostitute, could be a gay couple…we are known as the church of “HERE COMES EVERYONE” for a reason, though many don’t like that aspect, truth be told…well, I’m here to tell you that God loves every human he gives life to equally. There can be no denying. Man, God said, was VERY good.
    As a Catholic, we are to love the person, even if we don’t love their sin. It’s the action that’s sinful, mostly. True, Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, you’ve committed adultery. But it’s worse if you actually do it. Love the sinner, hate the sin, including your own.

    • David –
      the “doing” was what I was referring to in my post.

      However, let’s be careful not to add to the Bible – Scripture never states that Jesus spelled out the crowds sins with his finger in the sand – many commentators believe that’s what “might” have happened, but the Bible simply states that Jesus “wrote” in the sand – the Bible is not clear on *what* He wrote. Some commentators also believe that He may have written the 10 Commandments.

      While it’s true that God said that man was “very good,” that was BEFORE the fall. After the fall, the Bible states that there is NONE that doeth good. We’re all as filthy rags. (Ps. 14:1,3; Ps. 53:1,3; Is. 64:6; Rom. 3:11,12)
      There is NOTHING good in us, save Jesus Christ once the sinner has accepted the Lord as his personal Savior.

      You said: “Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, you’ve committed adultery. But it’s worse if you actually do it.”
      Not so. If you lust, Jesus says you’ve committed adultery in your heart. That means you’ve “done” it. All sin is equal in His eyes – He has no respect of persons. He doesn’t view some things as worse and some as better – sin is sin is sin is sin. There’s no way around it.

      Lastly, “Love the sinner, hate the sin, including your own.”
      Amen! I agree with this 100%. More Christians would be getting things “right” if they’d take care of their OWN sin instead of worrying about everyone elses.

      • Heather Joy,
        Not adding to the Bible, it is tradition, but the finger of God writing on the ground comes from Jeremiah 17:13. Regarding Man being very good, we believe those passages you quoted to be hyperbolic. Jesus was a man, was he not very good? But the good in Genesis comes specifically from God, not any of our own merit. Since we come from God, and God is all good, we are good, thanks be to God.
        I won’t argue your beliefs with you, but we know from earliest times that there are mortal sins and venial sins. Your doctrine comes from later than that. It’s not true that God has no respect for persons. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all persons. Your right that sin is sin and all sin separates us from God. But God’s grace and our repentance gives us hope that we can still be with God in heaven.

        God bless.

        • mmmm bit of healthy debate. Good stuff.

          I’m worried that I getting a bit liberal in my old age but for me it’s all about love. We are like filthy rags, but why? So that we accept God’s grace and come to Him for everything. Unfortunately many people wallow in guilt and self oppression instead of recognising that Jesus was punished so we don’t have to be.

          So while we must be realistic about how feeble, frail, and foolish we are, this goes hand in hand with our need for and God’s provision of grace.

          Realising that we are rubbish without grace leads to depression and a merit based religion. Accepting grace without recognising out need for it leads to pride and a pharisaical religion.

          I think that all makes sense but as I’m lazy I can’t be tafted proof reading it!

        • While it’s true that God did indeed become man and live on this earth with us for 33 years, there is one HUGE, major difference between Him and the rest of mankind – He was perfect. He became man, yet lived a sinless life. THAT is why He was very good. Had He been a sinner like the rest of us, He would not have been that “good” and acceptable sacrifice for our sins.
          We are not and never will be on the same level as God. He is holy, and we are nowhere close. The closest we’ll get to being, as the Bible admonishes us to be, “Holy even as [God] is holy” is when we die and are given a new and perfect body in the Presence of Almighty God one day in Heaven.

          You are correct and I agree with 100% with you when you say that “God’s grace and our repentance gives us hope that we can still be with God in heaven.” I’ll take it one step further though – because of God’s grace and His sacrifice on Calvary, I can KNOW that I’m going to Heaven one day. I don’t have to “hope” – I can trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross. He cried “It is finished!” and I can cry the same thing in regards to my salvation. He saved me, He sealed me, He’ll keep me. I’m His.

          Blessings to you and yours, my friend.

          • We believe all creation is very good because God created everything. He created us very good. When we’re born, we’re stained with original sin, which baptism washes away. We spend the rest of our lives as sinners, but that doesn’t change God’s creation as very good. But again it’s only God’s grace that makes us good.

            Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary is the key to the opening of the gates of heaven. Catholics believe we are all works in progress until the day we die to stand before God in judgement. We constantly sin…the just man sins 7 times a day. We must repent and give our assent to Jesus. The God who made us without our cooperation won’t save us without our cooperation.

  16. Let me first say that I truly believe ALL people are capable of change and can over come sin in their life when God is doing it. Second, I also believe that all things are created by God. Thus all people are God’s creation and he loves them no matter what their sin is. Because God loves them and I want to be like God then I will love them too.
    I just have a few questions for you. Since we are all guilty of sin who can be a pastor? Why would it be wrong to ordain homosexuals as pastors since even none homosexual pastors are probably sinning somewhere in their life?

    • Amen, Laura.
      In answer to your questions, God alone calls people to “full time” ministry – whether it be as a Preacher, Pastor, Missionary, Evangelist, etc. However, if the one claiming to be called does not match what the Lord requires of them in Scripture, then that’s another story. God’s callings will not contradict His Word.
      Yes, it would be wrong to ordain homosexuals as Pastors – because they are living a lifestyle which practices same-sex realtions – that is completely contrary to God’s Word.
      Yes, all men are sinners. But if you’re blatanly, purposefully going against His Word… then what’s the point?
      I’m not sure if my answers make any sense. It’s late… really late… (“early,” actually) – so my mind isn’t exactly working at 100% right now. All my thoughts are running together and making a heeping mess in my mind.

      Thank you for the comment. Good questions!
      Blessings.

  17. There is really a simple test to see if your church or you are”homophobic”. Imagine another sexual sin taking the place of the homosexuality.

    If a member of the church left his wife and came to church with a new girlfriend, put his arm around her, and indicated they were a scripturally illicit couple, should he be disciplined?

    If a man got saved, but admitted he slept with cows, and did not believe he could stop nor expressed a desire to felt a need to do so, but it was openly known he continued in such practice, would the members vote for his admission to their local body?

    If a man or woman was in a sexual relationship with a seven or eight year old child, (and it was legal – hey, adultry and homosexuality used to be illigal) would go allow them to continue in the church without first confronting them with their gross sin as I Cor. taught, and hoping for the reconciliation and repentance II Cor. showed of the man who took his mother-in-law (was it? it’s late, too tired to go look it up) to bed?

    The issue is not so much is gossip and pedophelia the same “sin level”, but is the open sin a reproach to the church, and is the saved member in repentace and actively seeking the victory God promises the saved person over sin – or living in the sin in blatant unrepentance and shamelssness?

  18. Here is that reference – the issue become that sin must be kept out of the church. If God meant every lie or gossippy remark, the churches would be empty. In heaven the church will be truely sinless…but here on earth, we are clearly taught in I Cor. to remove gross sins from the church..and restore one another.

    “It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

    And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

    For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

    In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

    Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.”

  19. Thank you for sharing, Jessica. Blessings.

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